Honestly. 'Not delicious' must be the understatement of the year. Faced with the smell, texture and bilious colour of pie, mash & liquor many years ago, I knew I had to come up with a plausible excuse for leaving it. "I'm so sorry, I can't eat it after all" I murmured to the waitress; "I'm expecting". Sympathetic glances all round.
I'm a born and bred Londoner, descended from generations of East Enders (my great-grandfather spoke rhyming slang as his first language) and I have never had pie and mash. It looks, sounds and smells disgusting. I like a pie, on occasion I like mash (butter, lots of pepper, maybe some cheese in there) but never this supposedly traditional dish, I prefer a curry or fish and chips (my other ancestors were immigrants, so I like an immigrant dish), time to maybe leave this (and the jellied eels) in the past where it belongs.
yes, that's why Goddards in greenwich does well, it's kept all the good parts of the tradition (large wooden tables, benches, fast service) but also serves a range of tasty pies that aren't made of emulsified arsehole.
You are right - Goddard's is a big exception and I think benefits from the fact that it's the only pie and mash shop I know of in an a tourist area. But they have squared the circle and come up with something which is quite clearly Cockney pie and mash with a few crowd pleasing amendments.
I think these comments tacitly miss the point of pie and mash. Yes objectively it’s sort of a bit crap but it’s charm and its refusal to adapt or change with trends is what makes it so special in a way. There aren’t many things like it that still exist in the same guise they did 100 years ago especially in London. Preservation is important particularly in food culture and should be celebrated.
I don't dislike pie and mash as much as some of the commenters and I agree with the last sentence up to a point - of course it's important not to lose old ways of doing things. I guess my issue is that the preservation of pie and mash as a codified, constant thing (despite the only real innovation actually being the liquor) is that it's so tied to the preservation of London as this constant thing. The reasons given for pie and mash's demise in London are always the (new) people and not the product.
That is a really good point - I remember when Goddards in Deptford closed down they blamed the vegans. I didn't grow up with pie and mash, but since my local (Noted Eel & Pie House) started doing vegan pies, I've recently become a fan. Not only is the food consistently comfortable and enjoyable, the clientele and staff have a nonchalant familiarity that I don't see as much elsewhere. As @harry_G says there is a charm to pie and mash shops that shouldn't be overlooked. I'm with your dad on the Ackee - though not with saltfish. The turning point for me with pie & mash is when I combined the two icon London cultures and started adding west indian hot pepper sauce to the pie and mash - when combined with chilli vinegar it's a game changer! Noted Eel and Pie House have some under the counter...
My wife is a proper East Ender, butcher’s daughter born in Hackney - she can trace family through Stepney and Aldgate back to the Great Fire. She can’t stand mash without butter - why wouldn’t you add butter if you can afford it - and also and hates posh Tories talking about what working class people like. (Jerk chicken with rice and peas over pie and mash any day).
There’s a fair number of people we know locally who older people assume to be hipster ‘incomers’ - because in a political battle they used that term - but who actually grew up round here, moved into town for excitement, moved back to Zone 4 when kids arrived to be near family - they have just changed with the city, rather than having some siege mentality against it.
There’s some wry amusement there are flash restaurants where there used to be lunch time strippers, or remembering which pubs you didn’t go in on match day in the 80s or 90s. But not that was a better world
As usual, a great piece. Had no idea pie and mash was so strict... first encountered it at Marvin in Malmö where they serve yassified pies more akin to Willy's. And always smothered in gravy too, which I'm guessing is against the rules?
Anyone interested in pie and mash culture should take a look at my book Pie & Mash London - which includes every single pie and mash shop in London - with commentary by John Rogers and The Gentle Author. www.jake.green/books
I was going to say something in defence of pie and mash, but now I see it means something completely different in London to the pies and mash I’m munching in my head. This is “biscuits and gravy” all over again
I was going to say something in defence of pie and mash, but now I see it means something completely different in London to the pies and mash I’m munching in my head. This is “biscuits and gravy” all over again
Having grown up in Romford and forced to eat pie & mash by my father, in part to maintain some kind of perseverance of his own identity after marrying my Italian mother, I can only take delight every time one of them closes. Let Essex keep them. Reactionary codification of food is never a good thing imo, especially when it's rubbish food to begin with.
I first had pie and mash in Greenwich in the mid-1970s, shortly after encountering a newsagent who literally called everyone “John”. I thought it was great, coming from a place where chip and gravy was still the takeaway of choice.
It was still a popular pre-match ritual on the Barking Road just before West Ham moved to the London Stadium. A couple of years later there was a van on the away concourse, selling pie and mash along with an explanation of liquor.
“Food always has a function of remembrance” - absolutely.
My family of upbringing were from the East End. We ate all sorts of vile things. Whelks etc. You know. Ew. Only dish that survived the generations as worth hanging on to is salt beef. I'm feeling queasy now and it's your fault, for making me remember and think about liquor m and eels. Jesus. Off for a sourdough with avo, thanks.
About once every other year I get a delivery from M Manze in honour of my Walthamstow-born grandfather who was nostalgic for "proper" pie & mash even though he was vegetarian for the last 30 or so years of his life. The pastry is weirdly tough but brittle, the filling a bit scant and the liquor is just flavourless. My nostalgia is for Woolloomooloo's Harry's Cafe de Wheels pie and mash - better pies, better mash, excellent gravy & mushy peas, served in a vertical arrangement that somehow never toppled over.
Honestly. 'Not delicious' must be the understatement of the year. Faced with the smell, texture and bilious colour of pie, mash & liquor many years ago, I knew I had to come up with a plausible excuse for leaving it. "I'm so sorry, I can't eat it after all" I murmured to the waitress; "I'm expecting". Sympathetic glances all round.
I'm a born and bred Londoner, descended from generations of East Enders (my great-grandfather spoke rhyming slang as his first language) and I have never had pie and mash. It looks, sounds and smells disgusting. I like a pie, on occasion I like mash (butter, lots of pepper, maybe some cheese in there) but never this supposedly traditional dish, I prefer a curry or fish and chips (my other ancestors were immigrants, so I like an immigrant dish), time to maybe leave this (and the jellied eels) in the past where it belongs.
yes, that's why Goddards in greenwich does well, it's kept all the good parts of the tradition (large wooden tables, benches, fast service) but also serves a range of tasty pies that aren't made of emulsified arsehole.
You are right - Goddard's is a big exception and I think benefits from the fact that it's the only pie and mash shop I know of in an a tourist area. But they have squared the circle and come up with something which is quite clearly Cockney pie and mash with a few crowd pleasing amendments.
I think these comments tacitly miss the point of pie and mash. Yes objectively it’s sort of a bit crap but it’s charm and its refusal to adapt or change with trends is what makes it so special in a way. There aren’t many things like it that still exist in the same guise they did 100 years ago especially in London. Preservation is important particularly in food culture and should be celebrated.
I don't dislike pie and mash as much as some of the commenters and I agree with the last sentence up to a point - of course it's important not to lose old ways of doing things. I guess my issue is that the preservation of pie and mash as a codified, constant thing (despite the only real innovation actually being the liquor) is that it's so tied to the preservation of London as this constant thing. The reasons given for pie and mash's demise in London are always the (new) people and not the product.
That is a really good point - I remember when Goddards in Deptford closed down they blamed the vegans. I didn't grow up with pie and mash, but since my local (Noted Eel & Pie House) started doing vegan pies, I've recently become a fan. Not only is the food consistently comfortable and enjoyable, the clientele and staff have a nonchalant familiarity that I don't see as much elsewhere. As @harry_G says there is a charm to pie and mash shops that shouldn't be overlooked. I'm with your dad on the Ackee - though not with saltfish. The turning point for me with pie & mash is when I combined the two icon London cultures and started adding west indian hot pepper sauce to the pie and mash - when combined with chilli vinegar it's a game changer! Noted Eel and Pie House have some under the counter...
Loved this
Thanks Joshi!
My wife is a proper East Ender, butcher’s daughter born in Hackney - she can trace family through Stepney and Aldgate back to the Great Fire. She can’t stand mash without butter - why wouldn’t you add butter if you can afford it - and also and hates posh Tories talking about what working class people like. (Jerk chicken with rice and peas over pie and mash any day).
There’s a fair number of people we know locally who older people assume to be hipster ‘incomers’ - because in a political battle they used that term - but who actually grew up round here, moved into town for excitement, moved back to Zone 4 when kids arrived to be near family - they have just changed with the city, rather than having some siege mentality against it.
There’s some wry amusement there are flash restaurants where there used to be lunch time strippers, or remembering which pubs you didn’t go in on match day in the 80s or 90s. But not that was a better world
As usual, a great piece. Had no idea pie and mash was so strict... first encountered it at Marvin in Malmö where they serve yassified pies more akin to Willy's. And always smothered in gravy too, which I'm guessing is against the rules?
Certainly against the rules in East End but 100% how it’s done in Northern cities - where pie, chips and gravy is still doing fine.
I believe the owners from Manchester so that checks out.
Graaaaaavy? You know it's not right.
Anyone interested in pie and mash culture should take a look at my book Pie & Mash London - which includes every single pie and mash shop in London - with commentary by John Rogers and The Gentle Author. www.jake.green/books
I was going to say something in defence of pie and mash, but now I see it means something completely different in London to the pies and mash I’m munching in my head. This is “biscuits and gravy” all over again
I was going to say something in defence of pie and mash, but now I see it means something completely different in London to the pies and mash I’m munching in my head. This is “biscuits and gravy” all over again
Having grown up in Romford and forced to eat pie & mash by my father, in part to maintain some kind of perseverance of his own identity after marrying my Italian mother, I can only take delight every time one of them closes. Let Essex keep them. Reactionary codification of food is never a good thing imo, especially when it's rubbish food to begin with.
Gertcha
I first had pie and mash in Greenwich in the mid-1970s, shortly after encountering a newsagent who literally called everyone “John”. I thought it was great, coming from a place where chip and gravy was still the takeaway of choice.
It was still a popular pre-match ritual on the Barking Road just before West Ham moved to the London Stadium. A couple of years later there was a van on the away concourse, selling pie and mash along with an explanation of liquor.
“Food always has a function of remembrance” - absolutely.
My family of upbringing were from the East End. We ate all sorts of vile things. Whelks etc. You know. Ew. Only dish that survived the generations as worth hanging on to is salt beef. I'm feeling queasy now and it's your fault, for making me remember and think about liquor m and eels. Jesus. Off for a sourdough with avo, thanks.
About once every other year I get a delivery from M Manze in honour of my Walthamstow-born grandfather who was nostalgic for "proper" pie & mash even though he was vegetarian for the last 30 or so years of his life. The pastry is weirdly tough but brittle, the filling a bit scant and the liquor is just flavourless. My nostalgia is for Woolloomooloo's Harry's Cafe de Wheels pie and mash - better pies, better mash, excellent gravy & mushy peas, served in a vertical arrangement that somehow never toppled over.
Ugh that gloopy liquor and grimmer than grim mash - give me Norfolk pie & mushy peas any day