yes, that's why Goddards in greenwich does well, it's kept all the good parts of the tradition (large wooden tables, benches, fast service) but also serves a range of tasty pies that aren't made of emulsified arsehole.
You are right - Goddard's is a big exception and I think benefits from the fact that it's the only pie and mash shop I know of in an a tourist area. But they have squared the circle and come up with something which is quite clearly Cockney pie and mash with a few crowd pleasing amendments.
Honestly. 'Not delicious' must be the understatement of the year. Faced with the smell, texture and bilious colour of pie, mash & liquor many years ago, I knew I had to come up with a plausible excuse for leaving it. "I'm so sorry, I can't eat it after all" I murmured to the waitress; "I'm expecting". Sympathetic glances all round.
I'm a born and bred Londoner, descended from generations of East Enders (my great-grandfather spoke rhyming slang as his first language) and I have never had pie and mash. It looks, sounds and smells disgusting. I like a pie, on occasion I like mash (butter, lots of pepper, maybe some cheese in there) but never this supposedly traditional dish, I prefer a curry or fish and chips (my other ancestors were immigrants, so I like an immigrant dish), time to maybe leave this (and the jellied eels) in the past where it belongs.
I think these comments tacitly miss the point of pie and mash. Yes objectively it’s sort of a bit crap but it’s charm and its refusal to adapt or change with trends is what makes it so special in a way. There aren’t many things like it that still exist in the same guise they did 100 years ago especially in London. Preservation is important particularly in food culture and should be celebrated.
I don't dislike pie and mash as much as some of the commenters and I agree with the last sentence up to a point - of course it's important not to lose old ways of doing things. I guess my issue is that the preservation of pie and mash as a codified, constant thing (despite the only real innovation actually being the liquor) is that it's so tied to the preservation of London as this constant thing. The reasons given for pie and mash's demise in London are always the (new) people and not the product.
That is a really good point - I remember when Goddards in Deptford closed down they blamed the vegans. I didn't grow up with pie and mash, but since my local (Noted Eel & Pie House) started doing vegan pies, I've recently become a fan. Not only is the food consistently comfortable and enjoyable, the clientele and staff have a nonchalant familiarity that I don't see as much elsewhere. As @harry_G says there is a charm to pie and mash shops that shouldn't be overlooked. I'm with your dad on the Ackee - though not with saltfish. The turning point for me with pie & mash is when I combined the two icon London cultures and started adding west indian hot pepper sauce to the pie and mash - when combined with chilli vinegar it's a game changer! Noted Eel and Pie House have some under the counter...
My wife is a proper East Ender, butcher’s daughter born in Hackney - she can trace family through Stepney and Aldgate back to the Great Fire. She can’t stand mash without butter - why wouldn’t you add butter if you can afford it - and also and hates posh Tories talking about what working class people like. (Jerk chicken with rice and peas over pie and mash any day).
There’s a fair number of people we know locally who older people assume to be hipster ‘incomers’ - because in a political battle they used that term - but who actually grew up round here, moved into town for excitement, moved back to Zone 4 when kids arrived to be near family - they have just changed with the city, rather than having some siege mentality against it.
There’s some wry amusement there are flash restaurants where there used to be lunch time strippers, or remembering which pubs you didn’t go in on match day in the 80s or 90s. But not that was a better world
I first had pie and mash in Greenwich in the mid-1970s, shortly after encountering a newsagent who literally called everyone “John”. I thought it was great, coming from a place where chip and gravy was still the takeaway of choice.
It was still a popular pre-match ritual on the Barking Road just before West Ham moved to the London Stadium. A couple of years later there was a van on the away concourse, selling pie and mash along with an explanation of liquor.
“Food always has a function of remembrance” - absolutely.
As usual, a great piece. Had no idea pie and mash was so strict... first encountered it at Marvin in Malmö where they serve yassified pies more akin to Willy's. And always smothered in gravy too, which I'm guessing is against the rules?
It was only yesterday (Sunday) when I was blown by the storm into my local G Kelly's Pie & Mash shop on Roman rd.
I admired the narrow marble benches. A nod to the old fashioned set up but reassuringly in keeping with modern expectations on hygiene.
My eyes followed through the open kitchen door, where the big, shiny professional ovens and staff with crisp white robes and head nets could be confused with a microchip factory. I focused back on the faded portraits of the original owners and the discreet sepia photos above the metal work benches. Not even a watermark!
Two old east enders had just finished their lunch in silence in what seemed like a Sunday sermon. A trendy guy in his 20's sat further down eating his seafood studiously with a knife and fork.
I paid close attention to the person ordering ahead of me as his economic use of words suggested that there is a code I was not aware of. I'm not native and despite living in the country for >25yrs there are still seams of culture that escape me.
The menu board, including the typeface, seemingly kept unchanged since the shop was established in the '20s.
When my turn came I complemented the lady's fluidity of movement as she packed everything with a steady, urgent rhythm. Every paper fold and cellophane twist executed with the precise choreography of a soloist performer.
I did a double take when it came to paying. £4.60 for a pie, mash and liquor.
The only reason I was able to partake in this ritual is because they serve vegan pies.
On my way out I started thinking how smart businesses can and should modernise while selling nostalgia discreetly, without the need to turn it into Dinseyland. And while I was pleased the mash was vegan, I wish they'd season it a bit.
As if by magic, this morning your far more erudite article appeared on my feed to complete my thoughts.
1. Is short crust pastry and not suet pastry. They are completely different forms of pastry. Suet pastry is steamed and not baked.
2. The liquor is thickened by cornflour and not flour as that would not work as adding flour to a liquid without the previous mixing of butter - a roux would see lumps of flour floating at the surface.
I can’t say I share your views on pie and mash completely, it is still very much alive and thriving in outer east London and enjoyed by many.
Dismissing the cultural heritage that comes with it is pretty poor too as it mocks people’s traditions that are important to them. You are right that it will die out eventually but that is just city progress for you, mocking those who try to hold on to it however is not cool.
Hi Neil, technical issues aside (often the bottoms of the pie are suet and the tops are shortcrust) I would contend that this article is mocking either the traditions or the people trying to hold onto them. It is critique for something I actually have a lot of fondness and respect for.
I am a foreigner with 22 years in East End of London and feel it is my home, however pie and mash is just bland, unattractive smear thing on the plate with parsley liquor tasting of dust, old, dry parsley. Not tasty for sure. Probably nostalgia thing for original Eastenders. It choose not to evolve or coexist. Sometimes it feels like it choose to completely ignore changing face of London specifically the east. And on top of this, often feels unwelcoming.
Anyone interested in pie and mash culture should take a look at my book Pie & Mash London - which includes every single pie and mash shop in London - with commentary by John Rogers and The Gentle Author. www.jake.green/books
I was going to say something in defence of pie and mash, but now I see it means something completely different in London to the pies and mash I’m munching in my head. This is “biscuits and gravy” all over again
yes, that's why Goddards in greenwich does well, it's kept all the good parts of the tradition (large wooden tables, benches, fast service) but also serves a range of tasty pies that aren't made of emulsified arsehole.
You are right - Goddard's is a big exception and I think benefits from the fact that it's the only pie and mash shop I know of in an a tourist area. But they have squared the circle and come up with something which is quite clearly Cockney pie and mash with a few crowd pleasing amendments.
Honestly. 'Not delicious' must be the understatement of the year. Faced with the smell, texture and bilious colour of pie, mash & liquor many years ago, I knew I had to come up with a plausible excuse for leaving it. "I'm so sorry, I can't eat it after all" I murmured to the waitress; "I'm expecting". Sympathetic glances all round.
I'm a born and bred Londoner, descended from generations of East Enders (my great-grandfather spoke rhyming slang as his first language) and I have never had pie and mash. It looks, sounds and smells disgusting. I like a pie, on occasion I like mash (butter, lots of pepper, maybe some cheese in there) but never this supposedly traditional dish, I prefer a curry or fish and chips (my other ancestors were immigrants, so I like an immigrant dish), time to maybe leave this (and the jellied eels) in the past where it belongs.
I think these comments tacitly miss the point of pie and mash. Yes objectively it’s sort of a bit crap but it’s charm and its refusal to adapt or change with trends is what makes it so special in a way. There aren’t many things like it that still exist in the same guise they did 100 years ago especially in London. Preservation is important particularly in food culture and should be celebrated.
I don't dislike pie and mash as much as some of the commenters and I agree with the last sentence up to a point - of course it's important not to lose old ways of doing things. I guess my issue is that the preservation of pie and mash as a codified, constant thing (despite the only real innovation actually being the liquor) is that it's so tied to the preservation of London as this constant thing. The reasons given for pie and mash's demise in London are always the (new) people and not the product.
That is a really good point - I remember when Goddards in Deptford closed down they blamed the vegans. I didn't grow up with pie and mash, but since my local (Noted Eel & Pie House) started doing vegan pies, I've recently become a fan. Not only is the food consistently comfortable and enjoyable, the clientele and staff have a nonchalant familiarity that I don't see as much elsewhere. As @harry_G says there is a charm to pie and mash shops that shouldn't be overlooked. I'm with your dad on the Ackee - though not with saltfish. The turning point for me with pie & mash is when I combined the two icon London cultures and started adding west indian hot pepper sauce to the pie and mash - when combined with chilli vinegar it's a game changer! Noted Eel and Pie House have some under the counter...
My wife is a proper East Ender, butcher’s daughter born in Hackney - she can trace family through Stepney and Aldgate back to the Great Fire. She can’t stand mash without butter - why wouldn’t you add butter if you can afford it - and also and hates posh Tories talking about what working class people like. (Jerk chicken with rice and peas over pie and mash any day).
There’s a fair number of people we know locally who older people assume to be hipster ‘incomers’ - because in a political battle they used that term - but who actually grew up round here, moved into town for excitement, moved back to Zone 4 when kids arrived to be near family - they have just changed with the city, rather than having some siege mentality against it.
There’s some wry amusement there are flash restaurants where there used to be lunch time strippers, or remembering which pubs you didn’t go in on match day in the 80s or 90s. But not that was a better world
Gertcha
I first had pie and mash in Greenwich in the mid-1970s, shortly after encountering a newsagent who literally called everyone “John”. I thought it was great, coming from a place where chip and gravy was still the takeaway of choice.
It was still a popular pre-match ritual on the Barking Road just before West Ham moved to the London Stadium. A couple of years later there was a van on the away concourse, selling pie and mash along with an explanation of liquor.
“Food always has a function of remembrance” - absolutely.
Loved this
Thanks Joshi!
As usual, a great piece. Had no idea pie and mash was so strict... first encountered it at Marvin in Malmö where they serve yassified pies more akin to Willy's. And always smothered in gravy too, which I'm guessing is against the rules?
Certainly against the rules in East End but 100% how it’s done in Northern cities - where pie, chips and gravy is still doing fine.
I believe the owners from Manchester so that checks out.
Graaaaaavy? You know it's not right.
Funny, and completely true!
It was only yesterday (Sunday) when I was blown by the storm into my local G Kelly's Pie & Mash shop on Roman rd.
I admired the narrow marble benches. A nod to the old fashioned set up but reassuringly in keeping with modern expectations on hygiene.
My eyes followed through the open kitchen door, where the big, shiny professional ovens and staff with crisp white robes and head nets could be confused with a microchip factory. I focused back on the faded portraits of the original owners and the discreet sepia photos above the metal work benches. Not even a watermark!
Two old east enders had just finished their lunch in silence in what seemed like a Sunday sermon. A trendy guy in his 20's sat further down eating his seafood studiously with a knife and fork.
I paid close attention to the person ordering ahead of me as his economic use of words suggested that there is a code I was not aware of. I'm not native and despite living in the country for >25yrs there are still seams of culture that escape me.
The menu board, including the typeface, seemingly kept unchanged since the shop was established in the '20s.
When my turn came I complemented the lady's fluidity of movement as she packed everything with a steady, urgent rhythm. Every paper fold and cellophane twist executed with the precise choreography of a soloist performer.
I did a double take when it came to paying. £4.60 for a pie, mash and liquor.
The only reason I was able to partake in this ritual is because they serve vegan pies.
On my way out I started thinking how smart businesses can and should modernise while selling nostalgia discreetly, without the need to turn it into Dinseyland. And while I was pleased the mash was vegan, I wish they'd season it a bit.
As if by magic, this morning your far more erudite article appeared on my feed to complete my thoughts.
Wild swing and a miss around Uber but enjoyable article none the less.
Couple of issues with the article:
1. Is short crust pastry and not suet pastry. They are completely different forms of pastry. Suet pastry is steamed and not baked.
2. The liquor is thickened by cornflour and not flour as that would not work as adding flour to a liquid without the previous mixing of butter - a roux would see lumps of flour floating at the surface.
I can’t say I share your views on pie and mash completely, it is still very much alive and thriving in outer east London and enjoyed by many.
Dismissing the cultural heritage that comes with it is pretty poor too as it mocks people’s traditions that are important to them. You are right that it will die out eventually but that is just city progress for you, mocking those who try to hold on to it however is not cool.
Hi Neil, technical issues aside (often the bottoms of the pie are suet and the tops are shortcrust) I would contend that this article is mocking either the traditions or the people trying to hold onto them. It is critique for something I actually have a lot of fondness and respect for.
I am a foreigner with 22 years in East End of London and feel it is my home, however pie and mash is just bland, unattractive smear thing on the plate with parsley liquor tasting of dust, old, dry parsley. Not tasty for sure. Probably nostalgia thing for original Eastenders. It choose not to evolve or coexist. Sometimes it feels like it choose to completely ignore changing face of London specifically the east. And on top of this, often feels unwelcoming.
I think that many of the places used to have eel tanks beneath them. What a waste that they are no longer used: https://www.alices.kitchen/guide/how-to-cook-eel/
Anyone interested in pie and mash culture should take a look at my book Pie & Mash London - which includes every single pie and mash shop in London - with commentary by John Rogers and The Gentle Author. www.jake.green/books
I was going to say something in defence of pie and mash, but now I see it means something completely different in London to the pies and mash I’m munching in my head. This is “biscuits and gravy” all over again